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 THE U.S. FALLS!

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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: THE U.S. FALLS!   Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:36 pm

okay, so, china has lent one trillion dollars to the united states, and, pending the u.s. doing something to piss off china, china could force the u.s. to pay it all back, which would effectively crush the u.s. economy, especially in its weakened state.

what do you think would happen if this happened? would the u.s. collapse as a nation? how would this affect the world?
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Periodic
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:52 am

Well, if China was stupid enough to force them to pay money, im guessing they will do what they did to Iraq, and make up some propaganda to secure their standing with the workers. They will do whatever they can to stay in control, and im sure we all know this.

As much as i hate to admit it, i think at this state in time, the US needs to stick around, considering the rise in Fascism and Nazism (Not that i want it to stay this way). Without US's help fighting it, threw propaganda, they could get into some deep power.

Once the Fascists die down i'll happily watch the US fall cheers
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:05 am

....um...

china would crush the u.s. if it came to a war o.o;; they could, if they expected an attack, probably eliminate all the major cities on the east coast rather easily...

would the u.s. be desperate enough to take down china with nukes? idk...

BUT the u.s. is controlled by fascists anyway! *cough* neocons *cough*
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:08 am

we are living in a fascist state my friend http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:19 am

Periodic wrote:
Well, if China was stupid enough to force them to pay money, im guessing they will do what they did to Iraq, and make up some propaganda to secure their standing with the workers. They will do whatever they can to stay in control, and im sure we all know this.

As much as i hate to admit it, i think at this state in time, the US needs to stick around, considering the rise in Fascism and Nazism (Not that i want it to stay this way). Without US's help fighting it, threw propaganda, they could get into some deep power.

Once the Fascists die down i'll happily watch the US fall cheers

So this statement is directly counterposed to trotskyism my friend. Not only did you fail to defend the chinese workers' state for having a collectivized economy which is key in establishing socialism, while still requiring a political revolution so the chinese workers can oust the bureaucracy,(which is the unique stance of trotskyists but you claim that the US plays a progressive role in the world. China is not a capitalist/imperialist nation, meaning there is no ruling class that can export finance capital so the idea that China is going to take over Iraq is a petty one.

America has never been counterpoised to fascism. America funded germany int WWII until they made it difficult for trade thus pushing them into a position where they must act. It's Ironic that you criticize china's propaganda when your opinion so obviously reflects american bourgeois illusions in the US gov't. The government never plays a progressive role in other nations, it merely plays on that left-face to cover for the economic action and investment in that nation. The ruling class does not care about thecitizens of other nations unless the situation makes it hard for them to make profit off of them.

At the rest of you. AMERICA IS NOT FASCIST! The american ruling class gives the ruling class basic rights (although ignored when possible) The American state has not upsurped political and economic control of the nation. Calling america fascist is merely a statement thrown out for shock value used by fake-communists to cover for their lack of political program

that is all for now
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:26 am

then america is about as close to fascism as you can get without being fascist
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:54 am

Shabazz Freeman wrote:
So this statement is directly counterposed to trotskyism my friend. Not only did you fail to defend the chinese workers' state for having a collectivized economy which is key in establishing socialism, while still requiring a political revolution so the chinese workers can oust the bureaucracy,(which is the unique stance of trotskyists but you claim that the US plays a progressive role in the world. China is not a capitalist/imperialist nation, meaning there is no ruling class that can export finance capital so the idea that China is going to take over Iraq is a petty one.

I think you misunderstood what i said.

I barely even stated anything about China, so how did i fail to defend it? And how could i defend it, since my statement barely used it?

I must have written my stance incorrectly, because i never ment to say that China was going to take over Iraq, i ment to say that what America was doing to Iraq, they could do to China threw propaganda.

China, is a mix, considering it sells goods to Wal-Mart, (A corporation we are suppose to be against) but, no state can be pure anything, take Canada for example, their health care is somewhat Socialistic. China is still, more Communist, than it is Capitalist. (Thankfully)
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:38 am

true, but china's communist party still has the shanghai clique, which is rapidly gaining power....D=

i apologize for calling america fascist, but the whole corporatism, secret bases wherein you send your enemies, the ability of police to arrest you and keep you in jail without a reason, and the right of the government to listen in on you thing...seems...fascist-like to me.

there is a difference though, because, in a true fascist state, a majority of these things would be unnecessary, as there would be a dictator =D whereas, here, you have an entire system designed to keep a certain class in control without upsetting the masses

also, no one besides periodic answered my original question D=
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:02 am

In my judgement, the only thing that separates historical German and Italian Fascism from potential U.S. Fascism is our support of the free market; Hitler and Mussolini were both proponents of planned economy and collectivism. But I think if you sat Bush down with either of these two men and cut fiscal policy out of their conversation, I think they'd have common ground.

Dubya can wiretap your phones, declare you an "enemy combatant", send you to secret prisons where you get tortured, and has superseded control of the national guard from the Executive branches of State level government, meaning he is in direct control of the nation's chief defense force, among other things.

So where he differs with traditional Fascism in its economic practices, I am convinced that he's on the road to shutting down what meager semblance of Democracy that we have left.

For further reading: "The End of America".

And here's a video of that book's author: Naomi Wolf on "The End of America".

If McCain gets into power, he will become the world's next Pinochet. I'm convinced of this.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:59 pm

i fail to see how anyone can even compare america to a fascist country, ev en saying it is close is simply outlanish. i fail to see how a country that gives you FREEDOMS is close to fascism. if it were a fascist country or even close you would NOT HAVE RIGHTS you would not have the right to express your opinion. if fact in america the people have TOOOO MUCH FREEDOM. in america the poor live in a better living condisitions than a great portion of the WORLD and they are treated equally to everyone else. THEY ARE ALLOWED TO GET ANYWHERE THEY WANT, BUT MOST PEOPLE ARE TOO BLOODY LAZY TO GET OUT OF THEIR SITUATION!!!! stop looking at the faults of the country (BECAUSE EVERY COUNTRY HAS FAULTS) and saying it is bad. surviellience meassures are neccessary where terrorism is an immennet threat, and most ordianry civilans are hardly questioned. comparing bush to hitler and mussolini is abusurd, the very idea is. DOES BUSH WANT TO COMPLETELY ELIMINATE AN ENTIRE ETHNIC GROUP? (didn't read up on mussolini's policies, but i know they are not similar to bush's AT ALL). nazi germany was socialist anyways. and thinking mccain will be the next pinochet? lol, whoa! dont know too much about his economic policies, but feel his social policies are too liberal. THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT IS SET UP WITH CHEQUES AND BALANCES SO NO PERSON CAN GAIN ABSOLUTE POWER, EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO.

and as to the orginial question, the US will not fall. i didnt even know china lent them trillions of dollars? the US will get back on their feet as soon as they create stability in iraq. contrary to popular belief, the US is not going through a recession.
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:13 pm

so that whole thing where bush ignores whatever congress says and goes and does what he wants is just a lie? (i can also draw on the famous examples of lincoln and jackson for this) - the executive branch gains unprecedented power during a war (i.e. iraq...)

no, i meant, hypothetically, if china decided to pull the rug out from the u.s., which, contrary to your belief, would cause a major depression, if not thorough economic collapse

and yeah. the u.s.'s dollar value is going down. that's the definition of recession.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:18 pm

Fascism is too harsh a term, and technically incorrect...

Fascism implies a certain amount of centralization and state control over the economy or at least some industries while still allowing private interests a very wide range of economic freedoms... as long as said interests are in cooperation with the state. the military aspect of Fascism is what makes most people call the US fascist, but this is in fact Imperialism/Nationalism.

Its like America adopted just the 'National' part of Hitlers 'National Socialism' (which is pretty much the 'Fascism' we know).

Calinis, certain freedoms were available even in Italy and Germany under Fascism, more than you'd think. While both states existed mostly under wartime (thus skewing most perceived freedoms that existed there) before the war started Fascist Italy and Germany were, for the most part, free... With the obvious exception of German minorities of course, although this could be compared to treatment of minorities in the US at the same time.

A state CAN be oppressed while maintaining some basic freedoms, for at least part of the population.

Your view of working class people in the US is warped, however. laziness has nothing to do with some of the conditions we face in this country. When the minimum wage leaves you below the cost of living its not the fault of the individual. I can't expect you to understand this, though, as I don't believe you've had the proper opportunity to observe the American employment scene.

The rest of your argument... goes in 5 directions at once. Lets see... It could be argued that Bush declared war on Mexican immigrants, The PATRIOT act has not made us safer, Mccain sucks (A Republican AGAINST gun rights? WTF), our system of 'cheques' and balances has collapsed in favor of our system of PACS and Lobbies, and we most certianly ARE going through a recession as the government has freaking admitted.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:29 pm

congress had to back up bush's decision. bush didnt just say "hey let's invade iraq' and then they did. it doesnt work like that. if that were the case, there wouldnt be an election coming up. he would have had absolute power.
in any fascist country dissent was highly punishment in addition with horrible treatment to certain ethnic groups (compare the treatment of any minorities who live better than whites because of afframative action with the treatment of jews and other "inferiorirs" in nazi germany) if minimum wage laws decrease, then people will thus be able to try to improve their situation and get a better job.
mexican immigrants are destroying american culture and decent americans are loosing jobs because they enter illegally. the patriot act has made america safer, yes i dont really like mccain (but hes hella better than obama), recession is 2 years of negative GDP i think
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:35 pm

Bush and his administration put forward what is now known to be FALSE information to justify the invasion. Just as they signed the PATRIOT act into law without reading it, congress trusted the president and did what he asked based on the pretty pictures he showed them and the patriotic words he used. That snake oil salesman of a president tricked congress, and tricked them good.

Your economic theory of 'get a better job lol' is plain stupid. Thats no theory at all, its a cop out.

Explain how Mexicans 'destroy culture' please. I assume you mean the language issue?

Explain how the PATRIOT act has made us safer. May I offer you a quote that sums up what I think? "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." - Benjamin Franklin

The dollar is down, oil is up, everyones broke... and the government you trust so much SAYS SO. Thats why theres a recession.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:36 pm

mexican immigrants are destroying about as much american culture as that state makes intellectual sense. consider: the "american" culture, is, in fact, just a collection of HUNDREDS of cultures

thanks for admitting recession

and bush did it, congress didn't "approve" (what choice did they have then...?) till later lol just like with lincoln...

and i advise you reread kgb's argument about fascism for the rest
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:44 pm

false information is usually not what US intelligence, british intelligence and russian intelligence say that there was WMD. altho there wasnt any found as of now, it was a legit threat at the time.
i just love how immigrants who dont work any hard at all can enter my country and destroy it, notice how white americans become rarer and rarer because all other cultures are corrupting it. they dont even deserve to be here. if a country prides itself on FREEDOM and opposed to SECURITY (when there is a threat) will crumble into completely turmoil.

and i dont see how their has been a nagative GDP for TWO years.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:52 pm

It was NEVER a legit threat.. when the top 3 intelligence agencies in the world go 'oops' you know something else was up. 'Engineered intelligence' anyone? Either that or they just fucked up, in which we should've apologized and withdrawn from fucking Iraq.

When you contribute it'll be 'your' country... nobody has a birthright to this place. I believe thats one of your positions, actually.. 'no birthrights for children of illegals'? 'No birthrights' is a 2-way street in that case.

Europe (most of the industrialized world, in fact) has not instituted an act similar to our PATRIOT act... yet they remain standing. I also find it ironic that you seem opposed to civil rights... in America. We're pretty much founded on the word 'Freedom' and you, who seem to claim to be a proud American, seem determined to shit all over that philosophy.

I say again: GOVERNMENT SAID SO. That should be proof enough for you.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:52 pm

no, it wasn't, everyone knew saddam wasn't a threat, that's why so many people protested the war. look it up. congress is looking back at this and saying "wait, this isn't what bush said". that's why bush himself admitted he was inflating figures and lying and such....

immigrants work harder than any other american.

that comment about white culture and freedom is reminiscent of aryanpower....i bet he'd be super proud of you (i, and everyone else on the previous site, have all already had a go against such a thinking process, so, i'll let someone else take you on it)
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:03 pm

since invading the US has done a ton of good and taking out saddam eventually contributed to a better live for the kurds, etc. saddam had links to terrorist organizations. he was a muslim. that says it all. and if people want to go to america to experience the FREEDOM (yes its true!!!!), they have to DESERVE entry. and security is a big issue, considering we were attacked on 911....if you're not terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. why do you hate an act that doesnt effect you? i dont trust everything the gov says btw.

btw solapacvoicis i said nothing about whites people superior. read what i wrote please.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:09 pm

It was better when nobody was getting shot in the streets. As much as I disliked him Hussien did establish a secular (mostly) democracy... corrupt as he was, his reign was better than the occupation. At least everyone had running water and homes than...

Hussien had no proven links to terrorism. Another CIA 'mistake'.

Everyone in Iraq is a Muslim, whats your point?

Now what the HELL!? A little while ago you were talking about American cultural degradation, now you're saying they deserve entry? WTF MAKE UR MINDZ UP

"If you're not guilty, you have nothing to worry about" is the mantra of Fascism. You're walking a very thin line between security and police state. This goes against everything this country claims to stand for.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:11 pm

oh, okay, i'll read that again...

NOPE still sounds quite white supremacist:

calinis wrote:
i just love how immigrants who dont work any hard at all can enter my country and destroy it, notice how white americans become rarer and rarer because all other cultures are corrupting it. they dont even deserve to be here.

iraq used to be a fucking modern country, actually, one of the most modern in the middle east, and now its back in the stone age. don't spread bullshit like the u.s. did iraq good. its an insult to the iraqi people. kurds have gained slightly more freedom - at the expense of HOW MANY LIVES?!

HE HAD NO LINK TO TERRORISM! NONE! WHATSOEVER!

i care about an act that will affect me since i disagree with the government - so the police could arrest me and throw me into a special prison if they wanted to.

some of the first people who came to america to settle here were debtors and criminals. think about it.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:21 pm

I find it funny, when the US government states that they help Iraq, as they give them goods.

Once the goods stop flowing in and we finally leave in year 3000, their economy will be full chaos and hell, they don't want the type of government we implanted, so just more death and killing will presume afterwards..but don't worry, they will make up another excuse.

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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:23 pm

anyways as i was saying before, the US has severely saved many lives which could have been the next targets of saddam's genocide. if we hadnt invade, imagine what saddam could have done next? in addition, what if he did have WMD? i certainly wouldnt trust him. wouldnt consider a country where the leader is killing an ethnic populace "normal".
i said ILLEGAl immigrants dont deserve entry. if they prove themselves worthy, that is a different story. however notice how most crimes are comited by minorities? this s true fact. this is reason why they are generally corrutpting our country, not biases. so immuigration laws should be more strict, also for american's security.
they dont send you to prison for simply disagreeing with teh government!!!!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:24 pm

also since america is a good country now, there is no reason for revolution.
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PostSubject: Re: THE U.S. FALLS!   Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:27 pm

We saved a few lives and in the process killed thousands

Osama hits us so we go after Saddam, what the hell? Stupid war mongering oil freaks.

If he did have WMD? Well why did we say he did if he didn't? ...oil...
And considering they didn't have enough money for decent housing for their leaders i doubt they could have nuclear warheads, its common sense.

So i guess we should go to Zimbabwe, and like 10 other nations and help them too than eh? Why just Iraq? Oh yeah they have oil....

We have strict enough border patrol, i mean christ it's huge!

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