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 Arguments Over Anarchism

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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:35 pm

under anarchism how can you be sure people wont murder each other
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:39 pm

calinis wrote:
under anarchism how can you be sure people wont murder each other

that's a common misconception. anarchism is about horizontal organization and the elimination of hierarchies. there would still be self-rule through direct democracy.

also, a majority of murders take place because of problems with the education system and the spread of wealth.

i think i'll move these two posts over to another thread.
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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:03 pm

people dont generally know whats best for them. thats why a government is a neccesity.
under anarchy drugs would be legal which = more injustice.
the majority of murderers are not based on the inequalities of capitalism. it has nothing to do with the economic system. murderers are abd people, thus they need to die. thats why the government needs to use capital punishment as a means of enforcing this.
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Alek4a
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:15 am

calinis wrote:
under anarchism how can you be sure people wont murder each other

Crime is largely a result of financial inequality. i firmly belive an Anarchist society would be very much less violent than most any society we see today under authoritarian rule
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SicSemperTryannis
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:21 am

I think solpacvoicis and Alek4a already covered the main points.

Please explain how drugs lead to "injustice". Then define "injustice", because that's a very subjective phrase. My idea of injustice, I'm sure, is quite different than yours is, calinis.
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:48 pm

Trespassing, Speeding, Theft, Drugs, etc.
Private property = abolished, so people can just walk anywere as most beileve
Speeding = No police, teens and reckless people could go 100 mph and threaten others.
Theft = No police to investigate, someone takes something it is not private property so they lost it, no way to know who did it and no way to get it back.
Drugs = Drugs affect the mind, and it being free can increase addiction to children, same with beer and cigarettes, is not good for the overall health of the person.
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:33 pm

Rename wrote:
Trespassing, Speeding, Theft, Drugs, etc.
Private property = abolished, so people can just walk anywere as most beileve
Speeding = No police, teens and reckless people could go 100 mph and threaten others.
Theft = No police to investigate, someone takes something it is not private property so they lost it, no way to know who did it and no way to get it back.
Drugs = Drugs affect the mind, and it being free can increase addiction to children, same with beer and cigarettes, is not good for the overall health of the person.

personal property is not the same as private property ^_^ personal property is not going to be abolished

so..if you need more explaining about the difference, ask, but otherwise, knock off the "private property, theft" problems =D

i don't like cars. at all. and there aren't police, but there are people's courts =D lol

drugs would be taught about it school, actually TAUGHT ABOUT instead of the scare tactics they use now a day, and as long as people are fully aware of the affects that the drug they are going to take have on them, they can have it - there is more in other threads in the debate section here about drugs =] Anarchist.Dagger defends drugs and such better than i lol
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Anarchist.Dagger
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:44 pm

calinis wrote:
under anarchism how can you be sure people wont murder each other

How can you be sure people won't murder each other under any form of society today? Governments don't prevent murder, they just punish murderers... usually by murdering them. My point is, you can never stop people from killing when passions run high. But these people aren't "murderers", they've simply allowed their emotions to take control of them, rather than vice-versa. The chances they'll kill again though seem slim at best. And if there is a killer who kills for the sake of killing, then someone would eventually take the matter into his own hands. People aren't just gonna sit back and watch a slaughter occur. But anarchism is a society built on peace and equality, so i hardly imagine people raised up in that kind of environment could bring themselves to commit such heinous crimes against their brothers and sisters.

Quote :
people dont generally know whats best for them.

wow... i wonder how you could prove that one.

Quote :
the majority of murderers are not based on the inequalities of capitalism.

Maybe not directly, but it could have something to do with the fact that they are born and raised in a world and a society that celebrates violence on a daily basis. And the violence is bred by inequality and imperialism, so ipso facto it is capitalism which creates and perpetuates the problem.

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Private property = abolished, so people can just walk anywere as most beileve

As sol cleared up, you're confusing private and personal property. Yes, private property is abolished, so no one owns the means to produce. Personal property is still very much around, mostly cos it'd be fascist to take away peoples personal effects. But no one has a right to the land, and no one has a right to the means by which we all subsist.

Quote :
Speeding = No police, teens and reckless people could go 100 mph and threaten others.

Like murder, this can be punished, but hardly prevented. I speed all the time. I've been caught once, and it was no deterrence. The cop was an asshole, so right after i got out of his sight, i blazed down the freeway as fast as i felt was safe (which was faster than he wrote me the ticket for).

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Theft = No police to investigate, someone takes something it is not private property so they lost it, no way to know who did it and no way to get it back.

Again, your mistake is bluntly evident, but since you're not a commie i'll give you a pass this time. There is no way to steal private property without a large force accompanying you (like the beggining of capitalism), because you cannot move it, you can only control it.

And as for personal property thefts... what's the point? Just go get your own. If production meets consumption, which i think is key for anarchism to be truly accomplished, then everything is free to be accessed by all. If you want what someone else has, go get it from the store.

Quote :
Drugs = Drugs affect the mind, and it being free can increase addiction to children, same with beer and cigarettes, is not good for the overall health of the person.

Sol covered this, so i won't say much on the matter. Telling people what they can and cannot have is never accepted with a smile. People don't like being told what to do with their own life, and their own body. And if you do regulate peoples' lives like that, you are only creating contempt besides making a rift between people. You are creating a minority where there wasn't one to begin with. I think the problems this creates are self-evident. It inevitably creates democracy, the repression of one or more minorities by the majority; it creates heirarchy, cos the majority must rule over the minority, otherwise there is no way to keep the minority from getting what it wants; it creates laws and police to keep the minority in check, and with it the state in order to manage the repression of the minorities.

The best one can do, while at the same time respecting autonomy, is to teach the children about the effects that drugs have on the body and the mind; even without scare-tactics, this, to me, would be sufficient to ensure that the majority of children don't take drugs.
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KOMMUNISMUS
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:41 pm

i dont agree with anarchy there must be order communism has the ultimate order all the workers together
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:37 pm

KOMMUNISMUS wrote:
i dont agree with anarchy there must be order communism has the ultimate order all the workers together

Anarchists are going to pounce on you with that type of comment lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:25 pm

honestly dude, anarchism is the ultimate goal of communism.

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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:45 pm

bolshevik wrote:
honestly dude, anarchism is the ultimate goal of communism.
correct, the main points we really argue about is revolution and post revolution
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:54 pm

exactly, we believe in dictatorship of the proletariat.

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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:53 pm

KOMMUNISMUS wrote:
i dont agree with anarchy there must be order communism has the ultimate order all the workers together

That's not a difference. Yes, there must be order, but it doesn't need to be imposed. If there is solidarity among the working class, order will follow, as long as the forces of reaction are dealt with sufficiently, that is (if not, then anarchism has no less a chance of being fulfilled than communism).
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:42 pm

so what are anarchist plan post revolution. how will you quell the counter revolutions?
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:47 pm

It's hard to be specific with such a vague question, so excuse me if this is the answer you were lookin for. Self-defense. If we are threatened, then we fight to defend the gains of the revolution. I guess an example would be a better way to answer this sort of question. Let's use the Paris Commune. Now, i agree with Lenin and Marx as to the two fatal flaws of the commune. One, they didn't seize the banks (you'd think that one would be a no-brainer, but the commune wasn't necessarily communist, if you get my meaning), and two, they didn't strike out at the state. When Paris was occupied, the government relocated to Versailles, and basically declared war. At this point, you know you are threatened because the counter-revolutionary forces have admitted that they will bring violence upon you. And if they deny you your right to freedom, why wouldn't you strike out at the government? The same goes for the bank of paris. It was still controlled by those loyal to the government, and they were feeding the government in Versailles money to help the war effort. This is also a blatantly oppressive act. So the people would have been justified in taking the funds (personally [and i'm sure we all agree] i think they would've been justified anyway, since it was their labour that created that wealth).
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:31 pm

bolshevik wrote:
exactly, we believe in dictatorship of the proletariat.

you know i love you Zach but I'm afraid this is where we differ. in a dictatorship is there not a great penalty for failure?
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:06 pm

Alek4a wrote:

you know i love you Zach but I'm afraid this is where we differ. in a dictatorship is there not a great penalty for failure?

dictatorship is widely accepted in todays world, and in america, worshipped...

because democracy is just dictatorship of the majority =P
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:07 pm

Alek4a wrote:


you know i love you Zach but I'm afraid this is where we differ. in a dictatorship is there not a great penalty for failure?

it doesnt mean dictatorship in that sense, i just means the proletariat will run things. It doesnt mean we want dictators. We believe in decentralized democracy
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:44 pm

I suppose im anarchist because i have little trust in the state regardless of how it is run. i suppose i dont agree with communism because i dont believe in men possessing power over others. Bakunin once said "if there is a state than there is domination and in turn slavery" i favor communism over capitalism but i only really support it as a means of achieving anarchism.
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:17 pm

i just believe that communism is a more scientific way of achiving said anarchism, and dictatorship of the proletariat is the term for the proletariat being in power, as opposed to a vanguard party or no party at all.
im back for a bit until jaw surgery, im veg and joining ALF :]

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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:49 pm

Alek4a wrote:
I suppose im anarchist because i have little trust in the state regardless of how it is run. i suppose i dont agree with communism because i dont believe in men possessing power over others. Bakunin once said "if there is a state than there is domination and in turn slavery" i favor communism over capitalism but i only really support it as a means of achieving anarchism.
It will turn into that, we just dont think it can be done overnight. there is a plan instead of it just happining
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:08 pm

we have a common goal =] it is in the means that we differ
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PostSubject: Re: Arguments Over Anarchism   Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:30 am

yep, lol, and i think that BOTH tactics are necessary for a world revolution ^_^
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