The Family

Key to socialism

or a system to be replaced?

Trots believe the family is the bedrock of women's oppression.

your thoughts?

i like families but only if they are traditional. dont see how families are the "bedrock of women's oppression"
and what system will you replae it with ideally?

Families should be kept. I support any kind of family as long as it is the result of an agreement between all the parties involved (including children once they reach an age in which they're highly conscious).

Personally, my ideal family would be given we lived in a socialist or communist society, if I had two bisexual girls that loved me, loved each other and were completely faithul to me.

My point? There could be a wide range of family types and all of them could be acceptable.

ok so i am guessing you support incest too if you support gay marriage?

why is gay marriage so accpeted today when it wasnt in the 50s?

omg next we will support murder (wth?)

keeping this statement as public record of his 3rd strike
Calinis has been permabanned for violating the Mow Crij Constitution for the 3rd time
-shabazz

shut the fuck up you twit about gays. being gay, and being incestuous are entirely different things

permabanned? thank you.

now...families...interesting...

well, when we are all autonomous communities with a gift economy in my dream world, then, the community shall raise the children, so the adults can concentrate on their own relationship (or work helping the children by being teachers, etc., or both)

yeah. awesomely complex idea, non? families are okay, i think, its just....there shouldn't be fixed ideas of who does what, like in the concept of the "traditional family" (the truly traditional family is a tribe, where, coincidentally, children were raised by the entire tribe ^_^)

calinis*permabanned* wrote:

ok so i am guessing you support incest too if you support gay marriage?

why is gay marriage so accpeted today when it wasnt in the 50s?

omg next we will support murder (wth?)

keeping this statement as public record of his 3rd strike
Calinis has been permabanned for violating the Mow Crij Constitution for the 3rd time
-shabazz

It's a pity you permabanned him... he's somewhat entertaining.

I'll reply anyway.

Yes I support incest if all parties involved are consciously consenting.

Society evolves, get over it. And even so gay marriage is not completely accepted even nowadays, in the 1950's it was nearly unthinkable.

I support executions given certain circumstances... although I'd prefer they never were necessary.

hm, personally, i'm not ready to support incest, but logically, i know i shouldn't really see it any differently (considering the concept of sex nowadays)

"who are we to determine life or death? do we suddenly think we are god?" -kid in my history class

Same I am for effective consent

if both parties are consenting i have no problem

and i think the death penalty is a barbaric tradition

And We refuse to tolerate that kind of filth on this site.

I wouldn't oppose absolutely any kind of multi-party family as long as everyone involved was consciously consenting. In my view that's the healthiest.

I think executions are sometimes necesary. I'm convinced you can't reform everyone and I don't consider it right to spend time, space and resources on them. But this is absolutely off-topic here and should be discussed somewhere else I think.

hm, open up a thread about the death penalty then lol

and...age limits? o.o;;

basically, i think any sex between anyone is okay so long as they are able to rationally consent to it (no drugging people up, and...uhh...yeah beastiality.....that's taking advantage of animals in my mind...)

interspecies families? o.o;;

what do trotskyists propose for an alternative? is it communal child raising? =D

The family arose from private property based society and males exerting their societal dominance by converting them into sex slaves essentially confined to the house. Mothers do the work of a proletariat without pay. It should be made into a profession for the workers in socialist society in which there are soup kitchens, quality healthcare and childcare, and free abortion and oral contraceptives on demand.

The family needs to be replaced to truly emancipate women

what are teachers and workers at preschool centers but paid mothers? =]

of course, but there isn't a real need for abortion anyway with the discovery of painless birth (which i believe will occur before the revolution...i'm a wee bit pessimistic about when it'll happen) and the collective raising of the community's children through...basically a center for child care where people can work and teach with these kids - they are provided with everything at the center that is needed....

soup kitchens?

solpacvoicis wrote:

hm, open up a thread about the death penalty then lol

For some reason I thought there was one already

solpacvoicis wrote:

and...age limits? o.o;;

basically, i think any sex between anyone is okay so long as they are able to rationally consent to it (no drugging people up, and...uhh...yeah beastiality.....that's taking advantage of animals in my mind...)

Agree to most of this. Nonetheless I think animals could develop some sort of like for intercourse with humans, if so happens and the zoophile can prove it, I guess I'd even approve of such a relationship.

solpacvoicis wrote:

interspecies families? o.o;;

This is going too far I think

solpacvoicis wrote:

what do trotskyists propose for an alternative? is it communal child raising? =D

I'd guess so...

Mothers cook- soup kitches=pretty much restaurants for everyone to get quality food rather than expect the mother of the home to do it for free.

and there aren't enough to fundamentally change the everyday lives of women.

there is the need for abortion. What if the woman doesn't want to have a child?
end

Shabazz Freeman wrote:

Mothers cook- soup kitches=pretty much restaurants for everyone to get quality food rather than expect the mother of the home to do it for free.

Sounds interesting, although I think we should learn too prepare food ourselves as early as possible.


As for abortion, I don't support it. In my view contraception is there to avoid abortion.

there's nothing stopping her, its just, why bother getting an abortion? people get abortions because they can't support the child (too young, no money....) most of the time...

and since the child will be raised by the community at large anyway, does it really matter?

^_^ yeah, that doesn't really make sense, why just women? it should be like...a restaurant nowadays except free...at least, that's what i think lol or wait, is that what you were saying? o.o;; now i'm confused

and no, there aren't enough, but there being more (and it all being concentrated in a child center of some sort) would solve that problem, right?

am i being too radical if i say that contraceptions themselves may become unnecessary? o.o;;

also, now i want to find some transhumanist literature after spending too much time on wiki...interesting stuff about what it means to be human, artificial birthing....o.o;;

obviously yes both men and women should learn. Sorry for not making that clear.

In theory, free and widely available oral contraception would prevent the need for abortion. But in the event their 99% effectiveness fails, women should have the right to abortion. It is a basic right of women

Well, I consider life begins with conception so abortion is in my view a kind of execution just of someone that hasn't commited any crime.

its essentially the mother before it gains consciousness separate.

like killing a tree

Shabazz Freeman wrote:

its essentially the mother before it gains consciousness separate.

like killing a tree

Not from my point of view. Anyway, if we were to accept this as you say, abortion would have a time limit to be practiced.

a baby does not gain consciousness until it's birth

I do not think abortion is morally justified. It is killing a human being. I think that babies are able to respond to feelings. They start to kick. They have feelings too. It is never okay to kill someone who has nothing done is wrong. I do not see how this is a woman's right also. But you can please explain.

it's male chauvinist.

you're forcing a woman to bring a child into this world against her will.

Free abortion is a fundamental women's right. To keep that from them means to subject them to the whims of males and society.

No not really at all. Is this that you are saying a woman who goes out and has sex and does things that are not responsible should just be forgiven and have the right to take away a life? I do not see how this is oppressive to women. Women should take responsibility for their actions (and males too, of course I do not have double standards)

or maybe its because they didn't have access to birth control?

you're saying if they can't afford it then they have to commit themselves to abstinence?

what if they took all of the necessary precautions and they still are impregnated?

what if they are raped?

As long as you can accept your point of view means the subordination of women to your misplaced sense of morality then fine.

What you are suggesting is explicitly male chauvinist whether you like it or not.
Making abortion illegal does not stop it. Read a damn history book for godsakes! It merely turns desperate women into criminals, subjects them to substandard medical conditions for abortion which can result in both the fetus and the mother's death. (but you don't care about the mother do you? she should take responsibility for herself right?)

You think the women come together and go on abortion parties? NO it's traumatic for them too but it is a right of women. Taking it means a deepening of their oppression. End of story.

Take what ever stance you'd like but understand the consequences it has on women.